Animal cognition and emotions

[maryannlewis]

I have seen some posts recently about instinct, and would like to share some thoughts.  I recently re-read "Alex and Me" by Dr. Irene Pepperberg. 

Her studies were with African Grey Parrots, and I realize these are not raptors, however, they posses an avian "bird brain" (which I now consider a compliment).  This particular book features her first study Alex (acronym for Avian Learning EXperiment).  Because parrots can vocalize she was able to show through solid scientific research that Alex could:
    Label objects
    Identify colors
    Identify material objects were made of
    COUNT the number of similar objects in a group of dissimilar objects ("How many green blocks?" on a tray of many objects)
    Identify what was the same or different between different objects (color, shape, size, material)
    Reply that the Arabic numeral "6" was "bigger" than a group of 4 objects. 
    Break down a word into individual sounds (done spontaneously when he wanted a nut.  nnn...uh...t)

Among many other rather astonishing accomplishments. 

Back to the eagles.  I have read in this forum and elsewhere that the eaglets will "learn" to hunt.  Learned behavior, probably at least partially instinctual, the desire to find food, and food is meat, but the skills to obtain the meat are "learned". 

I have also read today that the first year or so, they subsist largely on carrion, and prey stolen from other eagles, as their hunting skills are not fully honed yet.  Doesn't this mean that at some level they need to "figure out" the rest? 

Does anyone else out there think that cognitive thinking is not a switch, we have it and no other creature does, but rather a matter of degree? 

My opinion for what it's worth is all creatures are a combination of instinct, conditioned response ("learning") and some cognitive reasoning. 

Whaddya all think? 

[luve2forever]

Really glad you started this thread.... I just posted something on the Decorah thread about animals having more "emotion" and "reason" than many people credit them for... Your African parrot study is a perfect example of this. I hope we can convince some of the more hard-core "anti-anthropomorphism" eagleholics to compromise a little!

[jfrancl]

Maryann,  I just read your post and it's a very interesting subject.  Animals do have the capacity for pain and fear, which are needed for survival.  We've all seen animals and our eagle family particpate in play and there seems to be no other reason for it other than play.  I believe it is a combination of thinking, and instinct. The subject of feelings, emotions,  held by animals seems to be unclear.  But fear can certainly be catagorized as an emotion.

[maryannlewis]

Thanks luve2forever,

This is a subject near and dear to my heart!

Here is an excerpt from another post I made.  

The book I mentioned is largely anecdotal, with references to Dr. Pepperberg's studies. She did publish her extensive tests in a book "The Alex Studies" where she clearly (and rather dryly) describes her research.  

I am not expecting Parrots, Eagles, Dogs or Chimps to start spouting Euclidean theories, or to start expounding on algebraic equations.   I just think there may be more going on up there than we were taught to believe, and recent research seems to be proving this to be a possibility.

I am currently reading "Dog Sense" by John Bradshaw.  He has some really interesting thoughts about the evolutionary reasons for emotions in social animals (dogs).  Keeping a family group together helps keep "your" genes alive, and an emotional connection is an ideal way to do this.  

Surely birds are social animals, and certainly they show anger.  How can there be anger without joy?  

I'd love to hear other opinions on the subject!

[roogsgirl]

Maryann,

I totally agree with you. There is no way anyone can tell me that emotion/cognitve behavior is not a part of an eagle and that it is all instinct. After watching this family and their ability to comunicate with each other, whether mom to dad and vice versa when they needed to change spots during incubation, to feeding calls, to juvies talking to other juvies, and on and on. But how about the Dad in the Norfolk nest that would come and drop the fish and sit and wait and wait for the female and babies. Over and Over. I may not be able to convey my thoughts well on this as I am fearful of what others may think, but to me it is obvious to see how they think and feel. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to prove the genuine love that was between E2 And E3, or the way M and D had different thoughts on the way the nestorations should take place.  Nor is it hard to see how E2 is clearly, well... sad? about being alone without them around to talk to. Which will hopefully get her going! I could go on and on.  I will have to set my own emotion aside and give better examples later when I am done being all riled up.  Afterall, what animal doesn't have emotion? Small minded people can only think in small boxes and not allow themselves to believe in the bigger picture and to me that is when people loose out on this experience, not the other way around. Man people are gonna be mad at me.

[AliceWitt]

I gave this answer in the chat when the question of "teaching the eaglets to find food" came up.

Their parents do not teach them like we teach our kids to ride a bike. The babies just sort of follow along and learn by example or trial and error. "Teach", it is not a deliberate act on the part of the adults. It is just that adults go about their business and the babies hang out with them, mainly trying to steal their food! When they see an adult find and catch food, they will sooner or later look for food in the same spot. The parents don't actually teach the babies to hunt or fish, at least not as most people imagine. It's not like tap-dance lessons. The babies will chase their parents when they are hungry, demanding food. If one of the parents goes after a fish, the baby may try to grab it first. There is no real forethought on the part of the parents that little Junior needs to practice his fish snatching. Usually, they learn by trial and error.

Instinct, no question there.

Cognition and emotion .... oh course they have it. And I believe it exists in all animals to some degree.

You all heard of Freddie the eagle that sat for years on the light pole on the bridge? Freddie died last week after being hit by a bus.  Guess what, his mate is now sitting on the pole.

[maryannlewis]

When they see an adult find and catch food, they will sooner or later look for food in the same spot. The parents don't actually teach the babies to hunt or fish, at least not as most people imagine. It's not like tap-dance lessons. The babies will chase their parents when they are hungry, demanding food. If one of the parents goes after a fish, the baby may try to grab it first. There is no real forethought on the part of the parents that little Junior needs to practice his fish snatching. Usually, they learn by trial and error.

So interesting Alice.  Today I was "reading" (explain the quotes here later)  about a couple of studies on dogs.  In one study, dogs were put in a box, where they had to figure out a sequence of events to get out.  (pull a chord, push a lever, etc.)  Then other dogs were allowed to observe the sequence of events, but failed to figure it out after the observation.

However, in a simpler task, dogs were trained to use their paws to pull down a wooden block with food on it (rather than mouths, which would be easier).  Other dogs were allowed to observe the trained dogs, and more dogs used paws vs. mouths than was statistically random. 

Really makes you think!

Regarding reading, I listen to audiobooks as well as read text.  I have been told by some that  this is not "reading", but I defer to a very dyslexic friend who can't easily read text, but loves to listen to audiobooks, and can quote very clearly from what he has "read".   He is offended if someone tells him he is not "reading". 

I think this thought is appropriate for this thread, as we are embarking on discussing the edges of current thinking, and moving into newly discovered territory!

[Gracie]

Maryann,

I totally agree with you. There is no way anyone can tell me that emotion/cognitve behavior is not a part of an eagle and that it is all instinct. After watching this family and their ability to comunicate with each other, whether mom to dad and vice versa when they needed to change spots during incubation, to feeding calls, to juvies talking to other juvies, and on and on. But how about the Dad in the Norfolk nest that would come and drop the fish and sit and wait and wait for the female and babies. Over and Over. I may not be able to convey my thoughts well on this as I am fearful of what others may think, but to me it is obvious to see how they think and feel. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to prove the genuine love that was between E2 And E3, or the way M and D had different thoughts on the way the nestorations should take place.  Nor is it hard to see how E2 is clearly, well... sad? about being alone without them around to talk to. Which will hopefully get her going! I could go on and on.  I will have to set my own emotion aside and give better examples later when I am done being all riled up.  Afterall, what animal doesn't have emotion? Small minded people can only think in small boxes and not allow themselves to believe in the bigger picture and to me that is when people loose out on this experience, not the other way around. Man people are gonna be mad at me.

Well said!  I agree - if there is no emotion, explain the defense mode they went into protecting their eggs!  Clearly we all "Saw" emotion.  This Decorah unit works together like clock work. Mom and Dad are great parents.  They would not get involved in sibling rivalry, as they will not let E2/D1 leave before she is ready....Lets have some faith in the family....even when it sometimes defies logic....

[Esther]

I too think this is a fascinating subject. As I've watched these eagles interact all through this season it's been so interesting. I have had at one time 2 budgies & 2 cockatiels. One budgie was taught to say "pretty bird" & he took it from there & "taught himself" more than 50 words & how to use them in phrases he heard me say. And he used them at the correct times in the correct way. Such as chasing after the cockatiel & yelling "come ere Charlie". The cockatiel would do similar things. I've observed song birds in my yard & saw firsthand how & why they did certain things.

With the eagles there were so many things they did that caused me many aha moments. Like seeing Mom correct the one when he jumped at her using his foot to kick at her. He learned not to ever do that again! (Oh that human parents would do the same!)

The latest incidence I recall is in the video when E1 grabbed Dad's face & he jerked his head away & E1 came with it out of the nest. The funny part was Dad quickly looked out to the branches as if looking to see if Mom saw what he just did. He had no idea how to get him back in. He tried feeding him...that didn't work so he settled down on E2 & kept looking at the baby outside the nest.

When Mom came in she settled on E2 then looked at E1 & her Mom instincts kicked in immediately. She got up & tried to pull him in with her head but couldn't. (Dad never thought of doing that) Then she gently tried again using her head sideways & getting him under her head & neck pulled him in. Even if it was instinct she still had to figure out a way to do it.

As to emotions of anger & joy...The eaglets just a month ago would show anger if one of the others picked on them & would angrily put them into submission. As for joy in birds...My Daisy cockatiel was very happy when the "Bad Boys" song would come on TV. When she heard "Whatcha gonna do" she hopped down & went into her crazy dance all over the cage bottom. And when she saw me coming to her with some spaghetti & she recognized it there was very much joy!!! Hoping around & saying "Is it good" over & over. There was much joy with gusto in eating it. She had to have her normally yellow face washed afterward!

I could go on for hours with incidences at the eagle nest that showed intelligent interactions & conversation between Mom & Dad. Now people can not only be mad but will call me a dingbat too.

[shuff1]

I will say from the start that I have deleted my previous comments.  What I will say is that I believe the diversity and intelligence in nature is beyond awe inspiring.  I frankly, do not believe that we can truly understand that complexity.  There is beauty in the fact that all creatures, including ourselves have been given the ability to survive in our very different environments. There is great beauty and majesty in what the animals on this earth accomplish and know which is beyond human understanding.  We humans have no idea why birds and monarch butterflies migrate.  We have observed the 'mourning of elephants' we are on a journey to understand the miraculous questions that bind all living things together.  But we are diverse and special.  

I love the fact that we are different and mysterious and there are languages that are simliar and yet different.  I love the fact that we are all embued with the special things that we need to survive.  And those things may or may not be the same. This is a journey and I wish that we humans knew more about the complexity of life and the diversity of life but we are only beginning.  

[shuff1]

I will make one more controversial post tonight.  We humans with our emotions and intellect have managed to erradicate and extinguish many, many species on this earth.  The whole balance of life has been thrown off by our 'cognitive and emotional' needs and responses.  We have wiped out too many species to even imagine by our intellect. And so I would say, and you all can throw barbs or whatever else at me, that the instincts and grand design of nature is grander than our human experience and knowledge.  

So at the end of the day who is more intelligent and caring and better stewards of this earth?  Well it hasn't been the human animal. So I will say again our way of thought and our way of caring and our intelligence is not the perfect way. Maybe the eagles and the wildlife of this world know something more than we do.  I think we need to give them more credit than being 'human'.

[maryannlewis]

Hi all, thank you for the responses!

I have listened to more of John Bradshaw's book "Dog Sense".  Specifically the chapter on emotions.  I want to listen again, and take notes, because some of the things he says are really interesting, and I'd like to get the info from the book rather from memory (the downside of audio books).

He divides emotions into two groups, base emotions he feels most animals have (or at least mammals,  but I would extend that to birds in my personal experience) , anger, happiness, love, etc.  and more "self aware" emotions like embarrassment, jealousy, grief. 

It is an interesting thought, and I can see where some of the latter emotions may not have evolved in other species, but may be unique to us, or at least more highly evolved primates.  But, as always there is anecdotal evidence to the contrary!

I hope to make some notes this weekend and report more. 

[jfrancl]

Here is an excellent read on animal cognition from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cognition-animal/

[amasara]

nice topic  I'm reading a bk Enslaved by Ducks -  He talks re his dog recog certain words.  Ive made a list of about 20 that my dog "knows"
He mentioned saying to his dog -  do you want to go bye-bye and get a bath - to tease it.. I tried that on mind last night and the ears perked up w/ bye-bye and & went down w/ bath!!  Funny but possibly mean and confusing....

[maryannlewis]

Here is a very interesting video. 

Contrary to popular belief, horses will generally lay down flat out for an hour or more a day to sleep.  They do sleep standing up, but except for narcoleptic horses (another story - I had one), they can't enter REM sleep while standing, so must lay down and enter a deep sleep once or twice a day.

This is a horse who collapsed.  He was 26, and was dying.  The barn owner called the vet, and the older horse's owners, and then videoed the response of the younger horse while waiting.  The younger horse clearly knew something was wrong (not a nice sleep), and did everything he could think of to rouse his buddy.

 http://www.lvrj.com/multimedia/Incredible-video-of-horse-trying-to-will-another-horse-back-to-life-126338318.html